Value Investing 01 (May 08 - Dec 08)

Re: Value Investing

Postby Cheng » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:13 pm

poland wrote:if all decisions can be based on numbers & ratios, then can put in s/w.....no need to keng so much...hahha.....but we are dealing with humans ,whom most of the time are irrational.


I agree with poland. We cannot value anything and everything to perfection because we are dealing with humans. Our demand for goods and services changes over the years. Centuries ago it can be tulips, radio or a few decades back it can be cars etc. Probability and margin of safety will ensure that we are not precisely wrong, but approximately correct.

Thanks winston for the good articles! :D

To sum it up, to be a great value investor, we need good foresight.
"The really big money tends to be made by investors who are right on qualitative decisions." Warren Buffett

"Risk no more than you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful." Ed Seykota

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Re: Value Investing

Postby kennynah » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:22 pm

mgt? all way too subjective and then to start applying the idea of larger "margin of safety" and suddenly only the pennies meet that criteria...the moment, someone has to apply a very large safety margin...it shows, to me, they fella knows the "value" as much as I know jupiter

the entire idea of whether to use FA or TA. is to assist us with a meaningful and consistent way to invest and trade. Consistency means same old same old...day in day out...like clockwork... nothing subjective about this approach.... but if i had to depend on whether it is joe or mary who's running a firm, before i decide 50% is enough safety margin and 80% would be better if it is jane...then...hmmmm....ehhh...... i am suddenly lost for words...
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Re: Value Investing

Postby Cheng » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:25 pm

This is my summary from Ben's book, Chapter 7: Quantitative & Qualitative Factors in Security Analysis. The Margin-Of-Safety Concept.

After the analyst has learned what information he can get and where to find it, he faces the harder question of what to make of it. Analysing a security involves an analysis of the business.

Quantitative might be called the company's statistical exhibit. Included in it would be all the useful items in the income account and balance sheet, together with such additional specific data as may be provided with respect to production and unit prices, costs, capacity, unfilled orders,etc. These various items may be subclassified under 1) capitalisation, 2) earnings & dividends, 3) assets & liabilities, and 4) operating statistics.

The qualitative factors, on the other hand, deal with such matters as the nature of the business; the relative position of the individual company in the industry; its physical, geographical, and operating characteristics; the character of the management; and, finally, the outlook for the unit, for the industry, and for business in general.

Qualitative Factors (these factors are important, but also difficult to deal with intelligently)

Nature and Prospects of the Business. Industry Analysis. It is an established canon of investment in common stocks that one should first select the most promising industry or industries and then picking out the best companies in those industries. Many statistics are compiled and studied, the trade papers are read with care, and interviews are sought with well-informed people in each industry.

The Factor of Management. Picking a company with a good management is considered by many to be even more important than picking a company in a promising industry. The most convincing proof of capable management lies in a superior comparative record over a period of time. (which brings us back to quantitative data)

The Trend of Future Earnings. Financial theory sometimes sought to estimate future earnings by projecting the past trend into the future, and it has then used this projection as a basis for valuing the business. But while a trend shown in the past is a fact, a "future trend" is only an assumption.

Security Analysis and the Future. The kind of security analysis we regard as a most rewarding principle is concerned primarily with values which are supported by the facts and not those which depend largely upon expectations. In this respect the analyst's approach is diametrically opposed to that of a speculator, meaning thereby one whose success turns upon his ability to predict or guess future developments. Needless to say, the analyst must take possible future changes into account, but his primary aim is not so much to profit from them as to guard against them. Broadly speaking, he views the business future as a hazard which his conclusion must encounter rather than as the source of his vindication.

Margin of Safety as the Basic Quantitative Factor

Offsets to the Hazards of the Future. Place prime emphasis upon the presence of a large margin of safety for the security, which should be able to absorb whatever adverse developments are reasonably likely to occur. In such cases, he will be prepared to see unsatisfactory earnings for the issue during depression periods, but he will expect that (1) the company's financial strength will carry it unharmed through such a setback, and (2) its average earnings will be enough to justify fully the bond or stock purchase he is recommending.
"The really big money tends to be made by investors who are right on qualitative decisions." Warren Buffett

"Risk no more than you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful." Ed Seykota

Scan with FA, Time with TA, Volatility is my Friend. :)
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Re: Value Investing

Postby kennynah » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:28 pm

and this thread, i thought, was cobwebbering....hahaha... glad to see many are out strolling here on a sunday...keep them coming...thanks.
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Re: Value Investing

Postby Cheng » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:38 pm

kennynah wrote:and this thread, i thought, was cobwebbering....hahaha... glad to see many are out strolling here on a sunday...keep them coming...thanks.


ken, you are like the "charlie munger of TA", very critical about value investing. :) haha...
"The really big money tends to be made by investors who are right on qualitative decisions." Warren Buffett

"Risk no more than you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful." Ed Seykota

Scan with FA, Time with TA, Volatility is my Friend. :)
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Re: Value Investing

Postby kennynah » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:43 pm

just to make a spelling correction here...

no such word as "cobwebbering" ... the correct usage should be "cobwebbing"... hahaha....

cheng : no lah.... i just love to ask forummers here on FA topics...why like dat, why like dis...sometimes, i get answers...so... it was not meant to be critical.... though it appears like so, hor ? haha
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Re: Value Investing

Postby Cheng » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:48 pm

kennynah wrote:just to make a spelling correction here...

no such word as "cobwebbering" ... the correct usage should be "cobwebbing"... hahaha....

cheng : no lah.... i just love to ask forummers here on FA topics...why like dat, why like dis...sometimes, i get answers...so... it was not meant to be critical.... though it appears like so, hor ? haha


yea, you keep us thinking hahaha... appreciate your questions too! I've learnt from you too. We all learn together. It's been a fruitful year of knowledge since i joined Huato. :D
"The really big money tends to be made by investors who are right on qualitative decisions." Warren Buffett

"Risk no more than you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful." Ed Seykota

Scan with FA, Time with TA, Volatility is my Friend. :)
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Re: Value Investing

Postby winston » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:51 pm

There's an Investment Newsletter that looks at the following 28 variables before arriving at their short-listed candidate:-
1) Exchange rate trend
2) GDP growth
3) Inflation
4) Current account as % of GDP
5) External debt as % of GDP
6) FDI as % of GDP
7) Openness to investment and economic integration with the rest of the world
8) Political stability
9) Public and private political and financial transparency
10) Competitiveness
11) Excess Capacity
12) Comparative support/subsidiaries
13) Value chain
14) Power of suppliers
15) Power of buyers
16) Barriers to entry
17) Economies of scale
18) Experience Curve
19) Leapfrogging Technology
20) Access to capital
21) Product pricing and sales volume
22) Diversification
23) Technology pipeline
24) Gross operating and net margins
25) Capital Structure
26) Valuation of assets
27) Financial leverage
28) Operating and net cash flow

Who says Investing is easy ?
It's all about "how much you made when you were right" & "how little you lost when you were wrong"
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Re: Value Investing

Postby Poles » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:09 am

Cheng wrote:
To sum it up, to be a great value investor, we need good foresight.


To have foresight, we need wisdom.
To have wisdom,we need experience.
To have experience, we need to make mistakes....hahahaa....

p/s: this is not original, I read this somewhere.....but it is so true.
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Re: Value Investing

Postby Musicwhiz » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:44 am

Hi Poland,

I must say I entirely agree with the part on making mistakes. If I hadn't made the mistakes I made in 2005 and 2006, it would not have made me a more careful investor and I would have suffered even worse in the bear market beginning Oct 2007. I am thankful for the mistakes I made which were (fortunately) minor and did not cause me to lose a substantial portion of my wealth.

Moving forward, the ideal situation is for me to learn from other's mistakes, instead of making my own. But of course this is practically impossible, because to err is human after all. I just hope that the future mistakes I make will also not be too financially "draining", and can allow me to grow to become a better and wiser investor. :)
Please visit my value investing blog at http://sgmusicwhiz.blogspot.com
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