Value Investing 01 (May 08 - Dec 08)

Re: Value Investing

Postby helios » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Cheng wrote:In this pure bear, there will be prolong periods of prices being stagnant, that is where you find the bottom.

Why? Investors hurt in this economic crisis will be too fearful to buy. Once mass selling stops and not many are buying, prices remain stagnant for a very long time.


that is what economists called this a L-Shape recession, yeah?

ie. a protracted period of economic stagnation like the one experienced by Japan ...
helios
Permanent Loafer
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 8:30 am

Re: Value Investing

Postby kennynah » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:25 pm

cheng : nice thoughts and thanks for sharing...
Options Strategies & Discussions .(Trading Discipline : The Science of Constantly Acting on Knowledge Consistently - kennynah).Investment Strategies & Ideas

Image..................................................................<A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control-Proverbs 29:11>.................................................................Image
User avatar
kennynah
Lord of the Lew Lian
 
Posts: 14201
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 2:00 am
Location: everywhere.. and nowhere..

Re: Value Investing

Postby Musicwhiz » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:09 pm

Dear all,

My latest post on the recent markete mayhem. A value investor's test of resolve.

Thank you in advance for visiting. :D

http://sgmusicwhiz.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... shall.html
Please visit my value investing blog at http://sgmusicwhiz.blogspot.com
User avatar
Musicwhiz
Boss' Right Hand Person
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:02 am

Re: Value Investing

Postby winston » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:59 am

The real value trap by Ronald Chan
Monday, October 13, 2008

Buying cheap in a beaten market is the first step to value investing. While most investors are trembling in fear, value investors are now ready to enter the market for the long term.

Although some value fund managers are on a buying spree, others are caught in a value trap.

The "Oracle of Omaha" Warren Buffett is brave when others are fearful. Since 2008 Buffett's investment conglomerate Berkshire Hathaway has put more than US$37 billion (HK$288.6 billion) to work.

The investments have ranged from direct stock purchases to preferred share investments in Goldman Sachs and General Electric.

Buffett knows his investments and investors trust him wholeheartedly, but in other parts of value land, many fund managers face extreme pressure from investors.

Some of the best value fund managers are performing badly this year.

For example, Bill Ruane (Buffett's ex-schoolmate) of Sequoia Fund is down 20 percent, Bill Miller of Legg Mason Value Trust is down 48 percent and Marty Whitman of Third Avenue is down 41 percent.

These celebrity managers have the credibility to weather the storm. With their track record and experience, they can calm investor sentiment.

Smaller value fund houses, however, are caught up in the turmoil because their long-term investment horizon misaligns with short-term investor interest.

In the long run, we are all dead, said economist John Maynard Keynes. Though many value managers are candid and rational, investor panic leads to massive capital redemption, indirectly putting the managers out of business.

Mark Sellers III of Sellers Capital in Chicago, who successfully managed a US$300 million fund, recently threw in the towel because panic withdrawals from investors were causing him extreme stress.

In his letter to investors, he stated that he had totally neglected his family and friends to manage the fund. With pressure from all sides, he realized that it was time to quit because life is not just about managing money.

A former Morningstar analyst, Sellers had managed the fund since 2003, and I met him at the Berkshire Hathaway annual general meeting in 2006. As we shared the same philosophy and dream, we continued to exchange ideas.

In 2007 when I visited Sellers in Chicago we discussed how investors should be careful of value traps, or stocks that are beaten down but do not show value.

Amid the current market turmoil the value trap lies not only in the stocks we might pick, but also in fellow investors who promise to stay for the long term yet quickly flee when crisis strikes.

After all, patience is the ultimate virtue in value investing, and impatience would set a value manager up for the perfect trap.
It's all about "how much you made when you were right" & "how little you lost when you were wrong"
User avatar
winston
Billionaire Boss
 
Posts: 112637
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:28 am

Re: Value Investing

Postby kanglc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:11 pm

Link: http://www.tweedy.com/resources/library ... ct2008.pdf

October 8, 2008

To Our Shareholders:

We will be sending our September 30th semi-annual report to shareholders of the Tweedy, Browne Funds shortly. However, given the current turmoil in the financial markets and perhaps the most volatile stock markets we have seen in our 30+ years of investing, we wanted to share with you some facts as well as some of our thoughts.

We, and you indirectly because you are invested with us, are in a business that requires perspective and reasoned decision making; skills that are in short supply during the best of times and rare during the worst of times. We think evidence of this is seen in the enormous price swings each day in the markets as well as in individual securities where price swings of 10% are not unusual. (This certainly makes the efficient market theory debatable in our opinion.)

There is no question that fear is an ideal fuel for pessimism. In saying this we are by no means minimizing the problems in the financial markets attributable in large part to the mortgage debacle and freezing up of liquidity. Warren Buffett, in a recent
interview with Charlie Rose (available on the internet at http://www.charlierose.com), referred to liquidity as the oxygen of the financial system: you don’t know it’s there until it disappears.

As investors we are faced with the difficult task of making logical decisions in an uncertain time. What we won’t do is offer a post-mortem on the mess we are in. How we got here is obviously less important than how we get out. There will be lots of time for what we call the paternity suit phase. Our guess is that any logical analysis will turn up so many fingerprints and produce so much finger pointing that no one will get off free. Nor are we much interested in the media’s gleeful post mortems on the second death of Gordon Gecko in less than twenty years. Finally, we will attempt to avoid clichés.

To say the least, we, like you, do not enjoy serious markdowns in our investments. We constantly ask ourselves whether the
businesses we own have good fundamental economics and the financial resources to get through a very difficult economic environment and prosper as conditions begin to improve. Obviously, we think they do.

We will make a few general observations:

* There are extraordinarily talented people with enormous resources both in the US and abroad working to restore liquidity and confidence to the markets. We would expect to see increasingly coordinated efforts by governments around the world now that the schadenfreude phase is over and the realization that it is everybody’s problem has sunk in.

* The stock market has probably been the most powerful wealth-generating machine in the history of both the United States and Europe, and is a reflection of the fundamentals underlying our economic system.

* With apologies for what sounds like a cliché, you don’t make money buying at the top and selling at the bottom.

* Try to avoid projecting current conditions endlessly into the future. Things will change and likely for the better.

* We are not so naïve as to predict that all this will clear up in a few months, but extending our view out to a few years we are of the opinion things will be much improved. We think timing is impossible.

* We are seeing businesses with great economic fundamentals being driven down to unreasonable valuations in the stock markets around the world creating opportunities for patient, long-term capital.

On the specifics of our Funds, the Worldwide High Dividend Yield Value Fund has 24.1% cash, the Value Fund has 19.0% cash and the Tweedy, Browne Global Value Fund has 10.2% cash. The cash position in the Tweedy, Browne Funds includes US Treasury Bills and a position in the Dreyfus Government Prime Money Market Fund (ticker DVPXX). This Dreyfus Money Market vehicle invests in securities issued or guaranteed as to principal and interest by the US government or its agencies or
instrumentalities. We believe that the businesses we own have fundamentally good economics, easily understandable business dynamics and in our judgment sound liquidity. We wish times were better but we think we will be fine if we stay patient and rational.

We will have much more to say in our semi-annual letter. In the meantime, we are confident that confidence will return and are reminded of the words of Ben Graham, who said that while the stock market in the short-run is a voting machine, in the long run it is a weighing machine. We appreciate your business and your confidence.

Very truly yours,

TWEEDY, BROWNE COMPANY LLC
Christopher H. Browne
William H. Browne
John D. Spears
Thomas H. Shrager
Robert Q. Wyckoff, Jr.
Managing Directors
kanglc
Loafer
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:16 pm

Re: Value Investing

Postby fclim » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:53 pm

fclim wrote:dear all,

i started to nibble a bit on OCBC when the price / book was about 1, its like buying a free bank, i could not resist.. hee... :lol:

unfortunately, after my initial nibble, the price continues downwards... i'm mentally prepared though still sad... :cry: i'm prepared for it to go as low as 0.8 price to book...

so, if you are still holding cash... well, maybe you can still get a better deal than me? althou i think my deal not bad liaoz...

good luck to all...

most importantly, have fun,
fc


ehh.... just like to update that i've sold the OCBC today...
bcoz i'm not convinced we're out of the woods... but as always, i'm mostly wrong... :)

maybe i'll go in again when it is again near to its nav or maybe at 80%-90% of its NAV...

have fun,
fc
fclim
Loafer
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 10:16 pm

Re: Value Investing

Postby la papillion » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:43 pm

Hoho, trading in and out ah? :)

Come, let's watch the price fall to your 80%-90% NAV :)
An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis promises safety of principal and an adequate return - Benjamin Graham
User avatar
la papillion
Boss' Left Hand Person
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 2:10 pm

Re: Value Investing

Postby sidney » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:17 am

Hi all, does Banks' valuations very different from other stock? As in cannot use PE, EPS to determine?

How many methods are there to value banks? So far only i koe is book method valuation right?? Book value is valued at cost... I dun understand why use book value to determine NAV for bank valuation. Current Assets is very liquid and moves v.fast as propel by market forces. Why use book value.

I think:

1) Bcos ppl's deposit is bank liability---> For current assets should always use mark-to-market to value their cash n marketable secruities?


2) They can place off-balance sheets assets/ libilities when they do swap or gaurantee other derviatives---> so extend of leverage is not easily known. So book valuation is very dangerous right?

Can someone explain to me, my concept on banking valuation is very shallow.
Tempered.
User avatar
sidney
Foreman
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: Value Investing

Postby Musicwhiz » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:36 am

Valuing banks is very chim. Outside my circle of competence. So, I avoid. :)
Please visit my value investing blog at http://sgmusicwhiz.blogspot.com
User avatar
Musicwhiz
Boss' Right Hand Person
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 2:02 am

Re: Value Investing

Postby winston » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:38 am

Most of the M&A in the banking industry is measured by P/B.
It's all about "how much you made when you were right" & "how little you lost when you were wrong"
User avatar
winston
Billionaire Boss
 
Posts: 112637
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:28 am

PreviousNext

Return to Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest